Re: Engineering Certifications

"Bernie" <Bernie@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:8g09c0969evr8o2obr8et1vhdqjnu8nnea@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 03:26:09 -0500, "Patrick Michael"
> <heismanpat@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"ec" <no@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:bNQwc.53044$oi5.33001@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >> My main point is:
> >>
> >> If you do the job, you get the title.
> >>
> >> Take John Carmack for example. He is the found and lead programmer
for
iD
> >> software. ( Doom, Quake, etc ). He writes the 3D engines HIMSELF, and
has
> >no
> >> degree. He is arguably the best programmer in the world in his field.
Can
> >he
> >> not call himself a software engineer? Since he has no degree? Is he a
> >> software tech, even though he puts all others in field with degrees
to
> >> shame? He is alos building a real rocket right now, competing for
that
10
> >> million dollar prize. I guess he can't call himself a rocket
scientest
> >> either, even though his self learned skills in the field make him
just
as
> >> trained as one. Not everyone requires a professor.
> >
> >He's a computer programmer/software developer.  "Software Engineering"
is
> >one of those politically correct terms that rose out of a need to
> >artificially inflate the value of certain professions in the mid-90's.
>
> I disagree with you and, dare I say, agree with ec on this one small
> point.  Maybe that is the history of the term software engineer and
> yes most programmers wrongfully adopt the title.  But it is a true
> title and it is warranted by many.
>
> Consider that the Department of Labor defined Computer Software
> Engineer and Computer Programmer differently.  The difference is very
> intuitive to most people (excepting someone like ec who seems to think
> "engineer" simply means expert tech in their chosen field or something
> absurd like that).  Part of the DoL's description of Computer Software
> Engineer is pasted below:
>
> "Computer software engineers apply the principles and techniques of
> computer science, engineering, and mathematical analysis to the
> design, development, testing, and evaluation of the software and
> systems that enable computers to perform their many applications.
> ....Software engineers must possess strong programming skills, but are
> more concerned with developing algorithms and analyzing and solving
> programming problems than with actually writing code."
>
> Programmer is described by the DoL like this:
> "Computer programmers write, test, and maintain the detailed
> instructions, called programs, that computers must follow to perform
> their functions. .....Job titles and descriptions may vary, depending
> on the organization. In this occupational statement, computer
> programmer refers to individuals whose main job function is
> programming; this group has a wide range of responsibilities and
> educational backgrounds."
>
> So you can easily see the difference though in some respects the
> difference is subtle.  As an example Koblitz and Miller are credited
> with Elliptic Curve Cryptography. I don't think anyone would have a
> problem terming them Software Engineers give all the above.  I can
> also see how Carmack would also be applying engineering to writing
> software that models real environments on a computer.  You really
> can't do that without getting into the detailed physics principles of
> optics and electromagnetic radiation, can you?
>
> However, you are quite correct that so many who are really just
> programmers are stealing the title and calling themselves software
> engineers.
>
> >There are other examples that are even more absurd, such as Custodial
> >Engineer (janitor), and Sanitation Engineer (garbage).  Now before
somebody
> >jumps on me, I think it's only fair to point out that I'm currently a
> >computer science major.  I think computer science/programming is enough
of a
> >respectable enough field that it doesn't need to be artificially
inflated.
>
> Yes it is.  But as I pointed out above, Computer Software Engineering
> is also a valid field that is slightly different from just plain old
> programming.  In fact, you can see many universities offering degrees
> in software engineering.
>
> You can't on the other hand find degree programs for Systems
> Engineering or Network Engineering.  Now why would that be?  I
> wonder....  If those jobs are science and math based *surely* there
> would be need for some advanced education in science/math for those
> subjects.  Surely vendor certs are testing on those subject as well if
> universities aren't offering the training?  Oh they aren't you say?
> Well, that speaks for itself then.
>
> >To each their own, but I will always laugh at people who needlessly
attach
> >"engineer" to the end of their job title to try and make themselves out
to
> >be something they're not.
>
> Exactly.  The practice won't go away though.  Ec is a tribute to the
> mindset that generates this problem.  As long as people are simply
> trying to justify higher consultant fees, there will be people
> wrongfully adopting titles they have no business adopting.  Of course
> such people should at least have enough honesty and integrity to admit
> what they are doing when the subject comes up.  Trying to justify it
> posthumously with circular arguments and using examples from other
> valid engineering disciplines just makes one look silly.
>
> --Bernie

"excepting someone like ec who seems to think
"engineer" simply means expert tech in their chosen field or something
absurd like that"

Actually thats not what I think, and if you passed reading comprehension
in
grade school ( gotta throw some of your jabs back at you ) you'd see very
clearly that I define an "engineer" as someone who performs tasks in a
role
that meet the definition of the word itself in the dictionary. Degree or
no
degree is meaningless. What the person actually DOES is what makes them an
engineer. The word "engineer" and its definition came before the degree.
You
mentioned law in your previous posts. I wonder if you are aware you are
not
required to have a JD to take the BAR and become certified as an attorney
in
any state? Becoming a lawyer actually does not require an education at
all.
Granted, the average citizen, who isn't very intelligent, will definitely
need a professor to hold their hand and teach them, but that's besides the
point. There are Electrical Engineers, Software Engineers, Network
Engineers, and many other such titles out there. The field that uses the
title is what sets the conditions for what rates the title. Not you,
Bernie.