Re: As a matter of interest (was Re: Vatican trying to avoid baptism by proxy)

"Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
news:6f46399f4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> In message <vtqWj.42303$KJ1.30630@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:91bdc9e4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > In message <OOfWj.42235$KJ1.28368@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >> news:ff30b49e4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> > In message <R85Wj.362$xF6.264@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> >          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:42f6699e4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> > In message <28XVj.42193$KJ1.26127@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> >> >          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >> >> >> news:8f66389e4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> >> > In message <k2MVj.73700$y05.70842@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> >> >> >          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> "Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
message
>> >> >> >> >> news:ab34e59d4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> >> >> > In message <zaFVj.1429$yP7.901@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> >> >> >> >          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> "Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in 
>> >> >> >> >> >> message
>> >> >> >> >> >> news:f1b3da9d4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> >> >> >> > In message <cyCVj.281$CE1.31@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> >> > [snip]
>> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> Simple courtesy, like respecting an ancient trail or
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> crumbling
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ruin.
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> I
>> >> >> >> >> > > > > would consider walking (or skiing) indiscriminately

>> >> >> >> >> > > > > over
>> >> >> >> >> > > > > marked
>> >> >> >> >> > > > > graves  in established cemeteries to be somewhat
>> >> >> >> >> > > > > disrespectful.
>> >> >> >> >> > > >
>> >> >> >> >> > > > How do you cope with the average English Church?
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > > You lost me there.  I don't live in England.  And I
don't
>> >> >> >> >> > > get
>> >> >> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> >> >> > > connection  to walking or skiing over graves.
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > People are buried in the aisles so as you walk through
the
>> >> >> >> >> > church
>> >> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> >> > have  to walk on the graves.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Well, having visited Westminster Abbey for one, tour guides

>> >> >> >> >> seem
>> >> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> >> encourage strolling over certain "graves"
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Why the quotes?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> No one would realize there were people entombed under the
floor
>> >> >> >> unless
>> >> >> >> they
>> >> >> >> were told so.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > So the carving saying Here Lies Piegi McMuppet, Relict of
Kermit
>> >> >> > McMuppet,
>> >> >> > Died 21st Ian 1763'  isn't a clue?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If it's on the wall, I'd presume McPuppet was interred in a wall 
>> >> >> vault
>> >> >> near
>> >> >> the carving.  If he were buried directly beneath where people 
>> >> >> always
>> >> >> walked,  I presume future foot traffic was expected.
>> >> >
>> >> > So you are talking about a memorial, not a grave stone.
>> >>
>> >> I thought that was what YOU were talking about with your example of
>> >> memorial  carvings, responding to my mention of Westminster Abbey. 
>> >> Both
>> >> a
>> >> carved  inscription on a wall and a grave stone would be considered
>> >> memorials.  Otherwise, I don't recall seeing grave stones inside
>> >> buildings-- crypts and  vaults, maybe.  In buildings like
Westminster
>> >> Abbey, it's often unclear  exactly where the individual memorialized

>> >> on a
>> >> wall plaque is interred.
>> >>
>> >
>> > It's many years since I've been in the Abbey, but I suspect it is
much 
>> > the
>> > same as other major English churches of the same era, you will find 
>> > many
>> > graves under the floor of the nave.  These graves are generally
marked 
>> > by
>> > a
>> > carved inscription in the relevant slab.  There may also be a
memorial
>> > plaque
>> > on the wall but the latter doesn't necessarily refer to a grave in
the
>> > church
>> > or even in the adjacent  cemetary.
>> >
>> > Which memorial were you talking about?
>>
>> The ficticious(?) McPuppet one you brought up.
>
> I meant the original one you referred to in Westmister Abbey.

I don't recall any specific burial locations in Westminster Abbey, so I 
wouldn't have been referring to any one in particular.  I do recall seeing

wall plaques and (thanks to the image posted in this thread) floor
carvings 
inside.  I presumed that the plaques memorialized someone interred
nearby--  
in a vault or even under the floor.  Assuming the stone floor carvings
were 
placed above where someone was buried, it indicates to me that it was 
expected that people would be walking over this area as long as the church

stood.  No disrespect involved.

>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > > which were located beneath where people are expected to 
>> >> >> >> > > walk.
>> >> >> >> > > I
>> >> >> >> > > believe that outdoor cemeteries were what were being 
>> >> >> >> > > referred
>> >> >> >> > > to
>> >> >> >> > > here.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I can't see a difference between a grave inside a church and

>> >> >> >> > one
>> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> > an
>> >> >> >> > outdoor cemetary.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I guess that explains it in your case then.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Explains what?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That you see no difference between the two.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > That's a circular arguement if ever I saw one.  What are you
talking
>> >> > about?
>> >>
>> >> Circular, perhaps.  Do you see a difference between a crypt in a
>> >> mausoleum
>> >> or church and a slate stone marker in a grassy cemetery?
>> >
>> > No, they are all someone's grave and are all equally deserving of 
>> > respect.
>> >
>> >> I do.  In a  well-maintained cemetery, to purposely walk across a 
>> >> marked
>> >> grave site, just  because you can, would be considered disrespectful

>> >> by
>> >> many people.
>> >
>> > I suspect those who are offended are those who want to be offended. 
If
>> > you
>> > visit one of the many war grave sites in Europe, both British 
>> > Commonwealth
>> > and American[1], you will see rows of tombstones about 6 feet apart. 
>> > If
>> > you
>> > walk between the rows to find a particular tombstone you will, 
>> > perforce,
>> > be
>> > walking on the actual graves the stones are marking.  I've yet to
find
>> > anyone
>> > who finds this disrespectful.
>>
>> So you condemn the motives of all those who would be offended based on 
>> your
>> suspicions?
>
> Where did I say I condemned anyone for anything?

"I suspect those who are offended are those who want to be offended."  
You 
dismissed their motives for taking offense base on your own suspicions. 
Maybe "condemned" was too strong.

>
>>
>> If there is no option except to walk upon graves in a crowded cemetery,
>> especially a military one, I'm sure there's no disrespect involved. 
Most
>> of  the larger cemeteries around here have clear walking paths to
follow
>> that  presumably avoid graves.  There would be no reason to leave the 
>> path
>> and  walk over a grave, unless you are visiting or inspecting a
specific
>> grave  site.  I have seen custodians admonish people who were simply
>> strolling  across the graves, so I guess enough people had made it know
>> they consider  it disrespectful.
>
>
> More likely they don't want you to walk on the grass.

Hardly.

>
>>
>> >
>> > > Inside a  church, you could walk just about anywhere the layout 
>> > > guides
>> > > you without  being disrespectful, regardless of whether there are
>> > > people interred there or not.
>> >
>> > How so?
>>
>> What exactly do you need clarified or explained?
>>
>
> The idea that it is disrespectful to walk on graves in the open air but 
> not
> indoors.

When people are intentionally buried in a church beneath an aisle or 
walkway, the fact that people willy be walking over that site was
obviously 
considered okay, or the dead would have been located somewhere else.  
When 
people are buried in the ground in a cemetery and marked by a headstone,
it 
is typically considered respectful to avoid walking over the burial place 
unless attending the site.  Many cemeteries large enough to have a printed

brochure will ask for this courtesy in print, so walking on marked
cemetery 
graves-- while not against any law-- is considered disrespectful by enough

people to have it mentioned.