Re: As a matter of interest (was Re: Vatican trying to avoid baptism by proxy)

"Graeme Wall" <Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
news:25c689f4f%Graeme@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> In message <V1BWj.17731$CE1.5637@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>          "Bruce Remick" <remick@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

<<Snips>>

>>
>> I don't recall any specific burial locations in Westminster Abbey, so I
>> wouldn't have been referring to any one in particular.  I do recall 
>> seeing
>> wall plaques and (thanks to the image posted in this thread) floor 
>> carvings
>> inside.  I presumed that the plaques memorialized someone interred 
>> nearby--
>> in a vault or even under the floor.  Assuming the stone floor carvings 
>> were
>> placed above where someone was buried, it indicates to me that it was
>> expected that people would be walking over this area as long as the 
>> church
>> stood.  No disrespect involved.
>
> Which is where we came in I think.

Seems you're right.

>
>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > > which were located beneath where people are expected to
>> >> >> >> >> > > walk.
>> >> >> >> >> > > I
>> >> >> >> >> > > believe that outdoor cemeteries were what were being
>> >> >> >> >> > > referred
>> >> >> >> >> > > to
>> >> >> >> >> > > here.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > I can't see a difference between a grave inside a church 
>> >> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> >> > one
>> >> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> >> > an
>> >> >> >> >> > outdoor cemetary.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> I guess that explains it in your case then.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Explains what?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> That you see no difference between the two.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > That's a circular arguement if ever I saw one.  What are you
>> > > > > > talking about?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Circular, perhaps.  Do you see a difference between a crypt in
a
>> > > > > mausoleum or church and a slate stone marker in a grassy 
>> > > > > cemetery?
>> > > >
>> > > > No, they are all someone's grave and are all equally deserving of
>> > > > respect.
>> > > >
>> > > > > I do.  In a  well-maintained cemetery, to purposely walk across
a
>> > > > > marked grave site, just  because you can, would be considered
>> > > > > disrespectful  by many people.
>> > > >
>> > > > I suspect those who are offended are those who want to be
offended.
>> > > > If you visit one of the many war grave sites in Europe, both 
>> > > > British
>> > > > Commonwealth and American[1], you will see rows of tombstones
about 
>> > > > 6
>> > > > feet apart.  If you walk between the rows to find a particular
>> > > > tombstone you will,  perforce, be walking on the actual graves
the
>> > > > stones are marking.  I've yet to find anyone who finds this
>> > > > disrespectful.
>> > >
>> > > So you condemn the motives of all those who would be offended based

>> > > on
>> > > your suspicions?
>> >
>> > Where did I say I condemned anyone for anything?
>>
>> "I suspect those who are offended are those who want to be offended." 
>> You
>> dismissed their motives for taking offense base on your own suspicions.
>> Maybe "condemned" was too strong.
>>
>> >
>> > >
>> > > If there is no option except to walk upon graves in a crowded 
>> > > cemetery,
>> > > especially a military one, I'm sure there's no disrespect involved.
>> > > Most of  the larger cemeteries around here have clear walking paths

>> > > to
>> > > follow that  presumably avoid graves.  There would be no reason to
>> > > leave the  path and  walk over a grave, unless you are visiting or
>> > > inspecting a specific grave  site.  I have seen custodians admonish
>> > > people who were simply strolling  across the graves, so I guess 
>> > > enough
>> > > people had made it know they consider  it disrespectful.
>> >
>> >
>> > More likely they don't want you to walk on the grass.
>>
>> Hardly.
>
> Why do you say that?  People walking on grass can cause a lot of damage.

Hundreds of people a day maybe.  Otherwise, damage to grass isn't a
concern. 
Many of the pathways are of the same grass as the cemetery plots.

>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > > Inside a  church, you could walk just about anywhere the layout
>> >> > > guides
>> >> > > you without  being disrespectful, regardless of whether there
are
>> >> > > people interred there or not.
>> >> >
>> >> > How so?
>> >>
>> >> What exactly do you need clarified or explained?
>> >>
>> >
>> > The idea that it is disrespectful to walk on graves in the open air
but
>> > not
>> > indoors.
>>
>> When people are intentionally buried in a church beneath an aisle or
>> walkway, the fact that people willy be walking over that site was 
>> obviously
>> considered okay, or the dead would have been located somewhere else. 
>> When
>> people are buried in the ground in a cemetery and marked by a
headstone, 
>> it
>> is typically considered respectful to avoid walking over the burial
place
>> unless attending the site.  Many cemeteries large enough to have a 
>> printed
>> brochure will ask for this courtesy in print, so walking on marked 
>> cemetery
>> graves-- while not against any law-- is considered disrespectful by 
>> enough
>> people to have it mentioned.
>>
>
> Do these brochures actually say that it is disrespectful or do they
merely
> ask you not to walk on the grass?

As I recall, they typically remind visitors simply to respect the graves, 
the implication being to keep your kids from running around the gravesites

and climbing on the stones or crypts.  Not because of any potential damage

to grass or structures as much as a respect for the dead and their living 
families.  Your opinion may differ.