On Mar 20, 10:40=A0pm, "Ed Cryer" <e...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> "Nicole McDonald" <as...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
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> news:DJmdnRmAto--X3zanZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> > "Ed Cryer" <e...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >news:frri53$r5d$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> >> "Alastor" <ross...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
>>news:64c6e7bb-3487-4a43-a94c-d9ac1cdbd8b0@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> On Mar 19, 10:24 am, Alastor <ross...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>> On Mar 14, 5:27 am, "Ed Cryer" <e...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >>> > Iamque opus exegi, quod nec Iovis ira nec ignis
> >>> > nec poterit ferrum nec edax abolere vetustas.
> >>> > *** volet, illa dies, quae nil nisi cor****is huius
> >>> > ius habet, incerti spatium mihi finiat aevi:
> >>> > parte tamen meliore mei super alta perennis
> >>> > astra ferar, nomenque erit indelebile nostrum,
> >>> > quaque patet domitis Romana potentia terris,
> >>> > ore legar populi, perque omnia saecula fama,
> >>> > siquid habent veri vatum praesagia, vivam.
>
> >>> > (And now the work is done, that Jupiter's anger, fire or sword
> >>> > cannot
> >>> > erase, nor the gnawing tooth of time. Let that day, that only has
> >>> > power
> >>> > over my body, end, when it will, my uncertain span of years: yet
> >>> > the
> >>> > best part of me will be borne, immortal, beyond the distant stars.
> >>> > Wherever Rome's influence extends, over the lands it has
> >>> > civilised, I
> >>> > will be spoken, on people's lips: and, famous through all the
> >>> > ages, if
> >>> > there is truth in poet's prophecies, -vivam - I shall live.)
>
> >>> > Ed
>
> >>> > P.S. The translation was taken from Perseus. I'm struck by "quaque
> >>> > patet
> >>> > domitis Romana potentia terris," translated by "Wherever Rome's
> >>> > influence extends, over the lands it has civilised".
> >>> > "Domitis" =3D civilised? I think we'd opt for "mastered". But
> >>> > there's
> >>> > something here that's reflected in Vergil's comment on Roman
> >>> > grandeur,
> >>> > in the Aeneid;
> >>> > "tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento
> >>> > (hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem,
> >>> > parcere subiectis et debellare superbos."
> >>> > (Do thou remember, Romans, to rule the peoples (such will be your
> >>> > talents), and impose the fa****on of peace, to spare the beaten and
> >>> > bring
> >>> > down the proud)
> >>> > (my translation)
>
> >>> > It's just completely ****d and undisguised imperialism; no hint of
> >>> > veiling it with any kind of hypocritical altruism; just bring the
> >>> > barbarian buggers to heel!
>
> >>> Nice one, Ed. I've never read Perseus myself and it's very
> >>> interesting
> >>> that here was another Latin poet who was prepared to trumpet his
> >>> genius, which here is linked with the genius of Rome. Modesty
> >>> certainly wasn't part of the Roman personality. I'm not even sure
> >>> they
> >>> had a word corresponding to our 'modesty'. My Latin dictionary gives
> >>> me 3 words : modestia, pudor and verecundia, all of which seem to
> >>> have
> >>> a strong emotive connotation, as in shame, shyness and so on,
> >>> whereas
> >>> in English 'modesty' seems to signify a more formal kind of self-
> >>> presentation. Maybe 'gravitas' is the nearest Roman equivalent.-
> >>> Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> Oops, my mistake. It's Ovid and not Persius the satirist (nor even
> >> Perseus the website)! [:(]
> >> I guess he's immortal not out of vanity but because he has compiled a
> >> quite comprehensive record of myths. He was right about that.
>
> >> ****************
>
> >> That's an interesting question about modesty. I think I know what you
> >> mean. It's such a central Christian value that maybe you're right.
> >> "Moderation" was a very classical concept for behaviour. It meant
> >> "nothing in excess".
>
> >> Anybody familiar with what words the early Christian Latin writers
> >> used in this context?
>
> >> Ed
>
> > The Latin word "luxuria" is a common word for "excess" in this
> > context.
> > I'll check through my works of Prudentius, Augustine and even Aquinas.
>
> The Greek philosophers used the word "sophrosune"; a very, very highly
> valued human quality from Socrates onwards (and probably before him as
> well). Cicero, I think, uses "temperantia" for it.
> The more I consider the question of "modesty" under Christianity, the
> more I come to the conclusion that it was already very widely
> established in the Hellenistic world; and any meaning ****ft that
> occurred probably just moved emphasis to ***ual temperance.
>
> Ed- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You could be right, Ed. On the other hand, I still think there is a
subtle but profound difference in emphasis between 'modesty' and words
like 'sophrosune'. I am modest because I am no better than anyone else
(at least in principle), but I am 'sophron' because I don't want to
suffer the consequences of hubris and extravagance. In other words,
modesty is modesty but sophrosune is avoidance of immodesty.
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