Re: Okay, so...

B. T. Raven wrote:
> Alan Jones wrote:
>> "B. T. Raven" <nihil@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>> news:_uKdnTJSirt9lcLVnZ2dnUVZ_qTinZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [...]
>>> Genitive singular marker -is in the third declension was (and often
is) 
>>> pronounced short, like the end of the English word "miss." The
ablative 
>>> plural marking in the first and second declensions -is was pronounced
like 
>>> the end of the proper family name "Meese." So there would be no
confusion 
>>> even in rapid speech.
>> 
>> Is that certain? Church Latin seems to have the same "i" in both
places. 
>> When I was a English chorister, we were drilled into making the
distinction 
>> by a blue-stocking lady who taught both (classical) Latin and music;
but in 
>> broadcasts and recordings I rarely if ever hear "-eece" in "Gloria in 
>> excelsis" -- always "iss".
>> 
>> It's not just a matter of length: there are different symbols in
phonetics 
>> for the "i"s in "****p" [I]  and "sheep" [i], and the lengthening symbol
[:] 
>> isn't used in "sheep". The [I] sound doesn't exist in some languages,
where 
>> all i's are [i], and that is apparently true of Italian and Italianate 
>> Latin. Various transcriptions of ecclesiastical Latin use the same
phonetic 
>> [i] symbol for "cordis" genitive and "bonis" ablative; no [i:] for the 
>> ablative.
>
> Speakers of ecclesiastical latin are capable of distingui****ng between 
> long and short vowels.*

No doubt they're capable, as is everyone, but it's not part of the
traditional Ecclesiastical pronunciation.

> It's only a hoary tradition of carelessness that 
> produced uniformly produced Italianate vowels.

Calling it "carelessless" is like the old way of describing the changes
that took place in transitioning from Latin to the modern Romance
languages
as "degeneration".  The Ecclesiastical pronunciation is really just a
special case of the various national pronuncations of Latin, and in all
these cases, the pronunciation of Latin developed along side of the vulgar
Latin dialects/languages themselves.  So it's not like the speakers of
mediaeval and modern Latin just couldn't be bothered to make the vowel
length distinctions, but that in the evolution of Latin itself, the old
length distinctions were lost, to be replaced by new distinctions based on
syllable structure.  Of course, from a modern point of view, this is
unfortunate if one wants to appreciate classical poetry, but it is the
result of natural development.

> Maybe the late republican 
> pronunciation had a vowel longer than the one in "****p" (as a Hispanic 
> would try to say the word) and a vowel even longer than the one in sheep

>   (sheeep) for the macroned variety. In Latin there is no difference in 
> quality between long and short i. The Italianate (and other vernacular) 
> tendencies in church Latin are part of a long process carried out to 
> ensure that classical literature would be less accessible. If it was 
> necessary to read the Canti*** canticorum with feet immersed in 
> ice-water, what would have been needed in order to read Petronius
safely?

I don't think it's necessary to assume a conspiracy for keeping dangerous
literature from the m*****, when the m***** were illiterate anyway.

> So that you know where I'm coming from, I favor the restored 
> pronunciation of circa 50 B.C., if everone can agree on it.

I like the reconstructed pronunciation too for pronouncing classical
Latin,
but it's not going to be appropriate in all cir***stances, and I doubt if
everyone will be able to agree on it.

> If not, then 
> I would accept the later imperial pronunciation if that would lead to 
> EVERYONE, from now on, using it for all ordinary purposes. Singers of 
> the liturgy would of course continue to use Latin with an Italian
accent.**

So, everyone except "singers of the liturgy"?  And why the exception?  And
why "of course" with an Italian accent?  Would that apply to singing music
in Latin that was not part of the liturgy?  I'm no singer, but if I were
to
sing in Latin, why should I sing it as if it were Italian seeing that I am
neither Italian nor Roman Catholic?

-- 
Will