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Re: Dimini****ng Returns in Game Engineering

by Anton <anton.txt@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Jun 21, 2008 at 04:00 PM

Hello, AngleWyrm

 "And what is a logarithm? log_x(x^y) returns y, the  number  of
  dimensions. Taking the log of something implies  that  it  has
  multiple dimensions/variables."

  In my example experience is calculated as:
  Exp = Ta*K, K=const.
  -- just a value directly pro****tinal to the time the unit  has
  spent fighting. It is neither multi-dimensional  nor  consists
  of several variables...

 "The assumption I am  making  is  that  the  center  'diagonal'
  produces the highest number.  It  could  also  be  called  the
  optimum price/performance ratio."

  It's a fact, not an assumption. What you assume  is  that  the
  various stats are correlated (hence every point  is  close  to
  the diagonal) and that the  overall  fittness  function  is  a
  product thereof (so that being on the diagonal means being the
  best). I don't think either of these assumptions applies to  a
  considerable number of games...

 "Which happens in a lot of games. Most of the  4X  space  games
  are an early race, the the entire game is decided  within  the
  opening moves. Some  of  them  are  decided  even  before  the
  opening moves, by the random layout of the terrain."

  You think that's due to lots of stats? In your  'article'  you
  said a great number of stats did the  opposite  thing,  didn't
  you?

  The opposite situation would be if no early  gained  advantage
  could have any effect, which'd be more absurd, right?  So  the
  question is, how to find the  point  between  the  two  poles:
  self-accelerating  provess  and   self-deceletating   process,
  negative or positive feedback...

  Common sense tells that  every  advantge  (gained  during  the
  opening moves or in the middle of the game) should  of  course
  have an effect, but also it shuld  not  be  too  strong.  What
  middle point is chosen is decided by how the game  models  the
  Friction Forces (as Klauzevitz called them)

  Another assumtion of yours that I don't like is the  existence
  of a  single  fittness  ****ntion  that  summarizes  a  untit's
  effectiveness. Think of Stone-Scissors-Paper.  A  mojority  of
  strategy games implement this principle, better or worse,  and
  your 'diagonal' strategy doesn't work because  the  stats  are
  negatively correlated (good against infantry but can't resisst
  against airctaft). So, such a unit cannot be characterized  by
  a single statistic.

 "This happens if pieces of magic armor offer multipliers, or  a
  character can buff their weapon with several multipliers."

  True ONLY if the multipliers are  correlated,  but  why  shoul
  they?

 "Also, as the number of  stats  increases,  the  product  hangs
  around the bottom until the very end. The  situation  devolves
  into a set of boolean  maxed/not-maxed  prerequisites,  making
  the individual stat ranges rather pointless."

  Not only this, but also the overall value  of  X^n  starts  to
  behave as a boolean. But that'd be so only in case  of  highly
  correlated variables, which'd mean they might be reaplaced  by
  only one variable!

  In a good model the  variables  are  not  correlated  and  you
  graphs loose all sense.

  And replacing naturally analogous values by  booleans  is  bad
  irregardless of the model and number of stats therein, because
  that creates  lack  if  information.  I  may  wiels  the  swor
  skightly better than you, and some other  guy,  a  bit  better
  than me. With a boolean this difference  cannot  be  accounted
  for.

Anton

P.S.: Deciding about the number of stats before designing a game
      model is like choosing  the number of screws before desig-
      ning a car.
 




 31 Posts in Topic:
Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-07 22:50:12 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
John Nagle <nagle@[EMA  2008-06-08 23:51:42 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-09 14:17:43 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Geoffrey Summerhayes <  2008-06-10 11:59:36 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-11 21:04:03 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
nathan@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-06-11 23:37:21 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-12 22:37:04 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Russ Whiteman <russw99  2008-06-13 02:55:20 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-13 04:18:53 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Geoffrey Summerhayes <  2008-06-13 10:06:57 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-14 02:03:57 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Mike <m.fee@[EMAIL PRO  2008-06-16 11:06:41 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Geoffrey Summerhayes <  2008-06-14 22:29:39 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-15 04:50:17 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Miss Elaine Eos <Misc@  2008-06-15 07:56:54 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-15 15:34:08 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
nathan@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-06-15 21:21:39 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-15 21:29:18 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Geoffrey Summerhayes <  2008-06-16 13:46:40 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-18 00:14:44 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Anton <anton.txt@[EMAI  2008-06-19 21:12:22 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-21 00:58:42 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Anton <anton.txt@[EMAI  2008-06-21 16:00:14 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-21 18:02:32 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Anton <anton.txt@[EMAI  2008-06-22 10:55:12 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-22 17:31:17 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Anton <anton.txt@[EMAI  2008-06-24 19:04:52 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
"AngleWyrm" <  2008-06-25 18:40:13 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
Geoffrey Summerhayes <  2008-06-21 17:58:28 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
gsx <o.xhani@[EMAIL PR  2008-06-22 05:15:05 
Re: Diminishing Returns in Game Engineering
gsx <o.xhani@[EMAIL PR  2008-06-22 05:19:38 

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