Dear Newsgroup ~
In December 2007 I posted evidence which showed that John Neville,
Knt., and his wife, Elizabeth Holand, daughter of Thomas Holand, 5th
Earl of Kent, had a daughter named Margaret Neville, which daughter
was living 17 January 1423. Specifically, I found evidence which
showed that Sir John Neville and his wife, Elizabeth Holand, had four
children in all, including three sons, Ralph, John, and Thomas, and
one daughter, Margaret. The evidence for the younger children is
found in Proceedings and Ordinances of the Privy Council of England,
edited by Sir Harris Nicolas, 3 (1834): 20. On that page, there is a
contem****ary record dated 17 January 1423, which concerns the estate
of Elizabeth, widow of Sir John Neville. This record specifically
states that Lady Neville had three younger children, John, Thomas, and
Margaret, all
then living.
The item in question on page 20 may be found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3DNvYKAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA361&dq=3DHarris+N=
icolas+Proceedings+Ordinances#PRA1-PA20,M1
Although the item is in Latin, an abbreviated abstract in English can
be found on page v:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3DNvYKAAAAYAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA361&dq=3DHarris+N=
icolas+Proceedings+Ordinances#PRA1-PR5,M1
It reads as follows:
"17th January, 1 Henry VI. 1423. The feoffees of the deceased Lady
Neville of certain manors in the Counties of York, Nottingham, and
Surrey, having been examined, acknowledged that they were enfeoffed
thereof, for the purpose of paying the debts of the said Lady, forty
marks to her son John, =A320 to her son Thomas, and to her daughter
Margaret according to their discretion, and of making a re-enfeoffment
of the same to her son and heir." END OF QUOTE.
Since making my original post, I've since determined that Margaret
Neville, daughter of Sir John and Elizabeth named above, married
before 1424 William Lucy, Knt., of Richard's Castle, Hereford****re,
Woodcroft (in Luton), Bedford****re, Dallington, Northampton****re,
etc., son and heir of Walter Lucy, Knt., of Richard's Castile,
Woodcroft, Dallington, etc., by Eleanor, daughter and co-heiress of
Warin l=92Arcedekne, Knt. This marriage is proved by Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1422=961429 (1901): 322, 342 which shows that William Lucy, Knt.,
and his wife, Margaret Neville, received a grant of the castles,
lord****ps, and manors of Narberth and Pembroke****re and St. Clears,
Carmarthen****re in Wales for a term of 10 years from Edmund Mortimer,
5th Earl of March. Margaret Neville is identified in these records
as the kinswoman of Earl Edmund Mortimer. This information may be
found at the following weblinks:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v1/body/Henry6vol1page0322.pdf
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v1/body/Henry6vol1page0342.pdf
Earl Edmund likewise gave William and Margaret the manor of Wick Dive
(in Wicken), Northampton****re for life in 1424 [Reference: VCH
Northampton 5 (2002): 413=96438].
I believe Margaret (Neville) Lucy was Earl Edmund's first cousin, she
being the same person as Margaret Neville, the daughter of Lady
Elizabeth Neville, who is mentioned in the 1423 record of the Privy
Council above mentioned. This Margaret Neville's mother, Elizabeth
(Holand) Neville, was the aunt of Earl Edmund Mortimer.
Interestingly, I find that the matter of the identify of Margaret
Neville, wife of William Lucy, Knt., was discussed in print back in
1878 by "Ermentrude" in Notes & Queries 5th series, 9 (1878): 266.
Ermentrude states there that she found herself "confirmed by Harl. MS.
807 in the conclusion" that Margaret Neville, wife of William Lucy,
was the daughter of Sir John Neville, by his wife, Elizabeth Holand.
Unfortunately, Ermentrude failed to quote Harleian MS. 807. As such,
I'm uncertain exactly what she saw in that source. However, I assume
she found a record which stated that Sir John Neville and his wife,
Elizabeth Holand, had a daughter, Margaret Neville, who married
William Lucy. Ermentrude's comments may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://search.live.com/books/#q=3DMargaret%20Neville%20Lucy&filter=3Dall&pag=
e=3D1&t=3D-uqeMPPXyPXe6WHGwPwj6g&sq=3DMargaret%20Neville%20Lucy
Ermentrude's remarks were followed in the same year by those of B.W.
Greenfield in Notes & Queries, 5th ser. 9 (1878): 409-410. Mr.
Greenfield gave additional information regarding the identity of Sir
William Lucy, of Richard's Castle, Hereford****re, who he correctly
identified as the son and heir of Walter Lucy, Knt., by Eleanor,
daughter and co-heiress of Warin l=92Arcedekne, Knt. Mr. Greenfield's
comments may be viewed at the following weblinks:
http://search.live.com/books/#q=3DMargaret%20Neville%20Lucy&filter=3Dall&pag=
e=3D1&t=3DFAtMMwo3_DOT8BWvZOlsVA&sq=3DMargaret%20Neville%20Lucy
http://search.live.com/books/#q=3DMargaret%20Neville%20Lucy&filter=3Dall&pag=
e=3D1&t=3D4iLAzd7WbwxvTu9yy34D8A&sq=3DMargaret%20Neville%20Lucy
Neither Ermentrude or Mr. Greenfield provided a death date for
Margaret Neville, first wife of Sir William Lucy. Mr. Greenfield
correctly noted that Sir William Lucy married (2nd) Elizabeth Percy,
widow of Thomas Burgh (or Borough), Esq., of Gainsborough,
Lincoln****re, and (3rd) Margaret Fitz Lewis, daughter of Lewis John,
Knt., by Anne Montagu, Duchess of Exeter. Complete Peerage, 8
(1932): 252 (sub Lucy) indicates that Sir William Percy married his
second wife, Elizabeth Percy, before 1434, but gives no documentation
for this statement. Even so, we must suppose that Margaret Neville,
the first wife of Sir William Lucy, died sometime between 5 May 1426
(when she was stated to be living by the Patent Rolls cited above) and
1434. Elsewhere, I find it stated in print that Sir William Lucy and
his second wife, Elizabeth Percy, were married before 5 May 1434,
which date I believe comes from a reliable source.
The corrections/additions volume of Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 457
notes that Sir William Lucy married (1st) Margaret Neville, "kinswoman
of the Earl of March." It cites as its source the Patent Rolls items
first cited above. However, no identification is provided there for
Margaret Neville's parentage, nor is the Earl of March in question
identified. On the basis of my research and Ermentrude's comments
back in 1878, I'm satisfied that Margaret Neville, wife of Sir William
Lucy, was the daughter of Sir John Neville, and his wife, Elizabeth
Holand. This parentage would readily explain Margaret's near kin****p
to Edmund Mortimer, Earl of March.
Last but not least, Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 262 (sub Lucy)
identifies Sir William Lucy's 2nd wife, Elizabeth Percy, as "daughter
and co-heiress of Sir Henry Percy, and Elizabeth Bruce his wife."
Elizabeth Percy's mother was actually Elizabeth Bardolf (not Bruce),
she being the daughter of William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf.
Sir William Lucy held the manor of Gainsborough, Lincoln****re in right
of his wife, Elizabeth Percy, who was the heiress of that manor.
So Margaret Neville who was once found and forgotten is now back again
in the Neville-Holand family tree.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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