Leo van de Pas wrote:
>
> Dear Doug
>
> Someone who still follows Gen-Med made me aware that you had made an
> observation in which you disagreed with the mother of Catherine Stewart
I
> have. Hereby one of my reasonings why I haven't changed that. Please
read
> all the messages, most are very short.
> With best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
>
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leo van de Pas"
>> <leovdpas@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> To:
>> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: Wife of Roger Bigod,2nd Earl of Norfolk (Ida de Tosny or
>> Isabella Plantagenet)
>>
>>
>>> Dear ,
>>>
>>> I do not see logic in the below
>>>
>>> He says he disagrees with me
>>>
>>> Then one source says A
>>> another says B
>>>
>>> Just because Burke's Landed Gentry in Scotland says one wife had two
>>> daugters (without naming them) and another source SP lists her as a
>>> second daughter but who made that list and based on what? Has it any
>>> relation to Landed Gentry? I think not.
>>> To me it appears that Burke's 1999 is the most recent voice which
>>> says Sinclair not Douglas
>>>
>>> Now another point
>>>
>>> I have by Douglas two daughters
>>> Janet-- married contract 14 October 1474
>>> Elizabeth married before 1483
>>>
>>> by Sinclair
>>> Catherine who married and had two children then her husband remarries
>>> "before 26 February 1509" 35 years after Janet married and 26 after
>>> Elizabeth married.
>>>
>>> I think Catherine died young after giving birth to only two children
>>> and her husband married quickly as his son by Catherine died "in
>>> infancy". My guess is roughly that Catherine married about 1505 or
>>> 1506, still 31 years after Janet and 18 after Elizabeth. That huge
>>> gap to me implies dfifferent mothers. What do you think?
>>> Leo
>>>
What I think is that we have dueling secondary authorities and no
clear primary ones.
You claim that the first daughter by Douglas married in 1474.
I have John Stewart married 1459 or 1460
to Douglas. That would make that first daughter only 14 or 15
when married , a rather young age for marriage in 15th century Scotland.
I think the dates are later. What are your sources for these dates?
In general, I simply don't trust Burke's Peerage. I do tend to
trust the Landed Gentry current edition (2001), which subsumes
the Peerage as far as Scotland goes (i.e. it really should
be called "Peerage and Landed Gentry". Unfortunately
the 2001 Landed Gentry doesn't name names in this case. When there is
a duel between CP and/or SP or especially both agreeing, and no
problems seen in CP XIV, and Burke's Peerage, and there is
no absolute proof that Burke's Peerage is right, I go with CP.
CP is quite clear in this matter, no quibbles. Unfortunately they
do not list sources.
Thus there is no resolution to this. It's a matter
of weighing the value of secondary sources.
It would make a "difference" to the royal ancestry of
people who have such ancestry mainly though Catherine
Stewart, as Douglas would give them Robert III, which
Sinclair does not. I get Robert III through numerous other paths
too.
Given the vast nature of the undertaking, and the number of
cases like there where there are "duels" which are not absolutely
settled, it is amazing that this is the only serious disagreement
between me and Leo. There are a few others, but they are much more minor,
or far, far back into the dawn of history, rather than in the heart
of the English or Scottish high medieval. That's why I
endorse Leo so highly.
Doug McDonald
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